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... a candid conversation with the fanatical fuehrer of the American nazi party ... 

"Genocidal maniac!" "Barnum of the bigots!" These are among the more temperate 
epithets hurled regularly - along with eggs, paint, pop bottles, rocks and rotten 
vegetables - at George Lincoln Rockwell, self-appointed Fiihrer of the American Nazi 
Party and self-styled messiah of white supremacy and intransigent anti-Semitism. 
Reveling in his carefully cultivated role as a racist bogeyman, he has earned - and 
openly enjoys - the dubious distinction of being perhaps the most universally detested 
public figure in America today; even the Ku Klux Klan, which shares his Jew-hating, 
segregationist convictions, has officially disowned and denounced him. 

Until his rise to notoriety, however, like that of the patlwlogical Austrian paper hanger 
whose nightmare dream of Aryan world conquest he still nurtures. Rockwell would have 
been first on any one's list of those least likely to succeed as a racist demagogue or even 
to become one. The older of two sons born to "Doc" Rockwell, an old-time vaudeville 
comic, he spent his childhood years being shuttled back and forth between his divorced 
parents' homes -- his mother's place in rural Illinois and his father's summer cottage on 
the coast of Maine, where he was dandled and indulged by Doc's ever present house 
guests (including such showbiz cronies as Fred Allen, Benny Goodman, Groucho Marx 
and Walter Winchell). 

Rockwell entered Brown University in 1938 and quickly became known among the faculty 
as a practical-joking, insubordinate student of doubtful promise. Though he spent less 
time studying than drawing cartoons for the campus humor magazine, he managed 
somehow to get passing grades; and he began to court the coed who was to become his 
first wife. Dropping out of school at the end of his sophomore year to enlist in the Navy, 
Rockwell finally got married, in late 1941, after completing his training as a fighter pilot 
-just in time to get shipped overseas when the War broke out. Stationed in the South 
Pacific, he was commanding a Navy attack squadron at Pearl Harbor when the War 
ended. He mustered out in late 1945, returned to Maine and took up belated residence 
with his wife, eking by as a part time sign painter and free-lance photographer while he 
cast about for a permanent profession. Tightening the family's belt still another notch, he 
finally decided to quit work for study toward a career in commercial art. He moved his 
family to New York and signed up at Brooklyn's Pratt Institute, where his considerable 
graphic gifts were officially recognized in 1948, when a poster he'd drawn for the 
American Cancer Society was awarded the annual $1000 prize of the National Society of 
Illustrators. Then, quixotically turning his hack on art, Rockwell returned to Maine a 
year later to join three friends in opening an ad agency; when it went bankrupt a few 
months later, he again found himself scuffling for pin money from one odd job to another. 

Still an officer in the Navy Reserve, Rockwell was recalled to active duty in 1950 and 
served throughout the Korean War at the naval base in San Diego, where he befriended a 
married couple who shared his passionate conviction that General MacArthur ought to 

run for President in 1952. In the course of their conversations, the woman gave him what 
turned out to be a fateful handful of right-wing political pamphlets —for among them was 
a particularly gamy piece of anti-Semitic hate literature, the first he'd ever seen. Though 
he dismissed it at first as racist trash, he found it morbidly fascinating and read it from 
cover to cover - and then again; it was beginning to make sense to him. The seed was 
planted. Nurtured by more of the same cheerfully supplied by his new-found friends — it 
began to germinate; and when Rockwell picked up a copy of "Mein Kampf" in a 
secondhand book store and began to read, it took root. "I was hypnotized, transfixed, " he 
said later. 

"Within a year, I was an all-out Nazi, worshiping the greatest mind in two thousand 
years: Adolf Hitler. " 

Leaving his wife and three daughters behind in San Diego when he was transferred to 
Iceland in 1952 as a bomber squad commander, Rockwell was divorced and remarried - 
to an Icelander within a year. When his tour of duty was completed in 1954, he moved to 
Washington, D. C, and made still another ill-fated effort to become a breadwinner this 
time as the publisher of U. S. Lady, a special-market women's magazine - aimed at what 
he felt was an untapped readership of military wives; because of financial pressures, he 
was forced to sell out after the first few issues. In desperation, after a futile campaign to 
persuade well-heeled right-wing businessmen to underwrite his burgeoning but undefined 
political ambitions, he packed his wife and their few belongings into a car-drawn trailer 
and hit the road as a traveling salesman. No great shakes at this kind of work, either, he 
left more than one town empty-handed and dead broke; but his wife managed somehow to 
keep food on the table. 

Rockwell began to sit up nights mapping grandiose plans for the resurrection of National 
Socialism, with himself as the reincarnated Fiihrer; and (lining the day, between house 
calls, he roamed the country seeking fellow malcontents and proselytizing for fearless, 
dedicated cohorts to join him in his crusade to purify the land of "Reds and blacks. " By 
the summer of 1958 he had collected enough cash (via mailed donations from secret 
admirers, mostly in the South) and mustered enough fellow fanatics (11 or 12) to give the 
group a name - the American Nazi Party - and to begin agitating for attention. They got 
it: Their first official act was to picket the White House carrying such signs as SAVE IKE 
FROM THE KIKEs. Brandishing Lugers, clicking their heels and "heiling" each other in 
brown shirts, boots and swastika arm bands, they swaggered about their new "National 
Headquarters" - a tumble down shack in Arlington, Virginia, just across the Potomac 
from Washington. 

When an Atlanta synagogue was seriously damaged in a mysterious bombing late that 
summer, the public unleashed a storm of outrage against the Nazis (though none was 
ever indicted), and their little shack became a target for bricks and Molotov cocktails, 
police raids, snipers, abusive mail and telephoned death threats. Seeing the handwriting 
on the wall — not to mention a widening pattern of bullet holes — Rockwell's long 
suffering wife quietly packed her bags and left for Iceland. 

Her decision, as even Rockwell later admitted, could hardly have been a wiser one, for 
that first siege proved to be merely the opening skirmish in a continuing campaign of 
psychological and guerrilla warfare — punctuated periodically by ugly, often violent 
confrontations - between Rockwell and the public, the press, the law, the courts, the 
Government, the Church, the civil rights movement, the John Birch Society, the Anti- 
Defamation League, the A.D.A., the K.K.K., the FBI, and just about every known racial, 
religious and political minority group from Berkeley to Baltimore. In almost every 
contretemps, Rockwell has come out on the short end - winding up usually either in jail 
for inciting a riot or in the hospital for sticking around to see how it came out. 

Often bloodied {once by an outraged viewer in the middle of a television speech), but still 
unbowed (even by his most recent and humiliating defeat --for the governorship of 
Virginia), the indomitable Nazi chieftain announced recently that lie plans to stage a 
"back-to- Africa" hate rally this summer at the corner of Lenox Avenue and 125th Street 
in the heart of New York's Harlem. Few think he's crazy enough to go through with it, but 
even fewer would be willing to swear that he isn't. In the hope of finding out for sure, and 
of learning how he got that way, we decided to ask the neo-Nazi for an interview. Unlike 
controversial past interviewees Klan Wizard Robert Shelton and atheist Madalyn 
Murray, Rockwell could not be called a spokesman for any socially or politically 
significant minority; indeed, his fanatical following is both motley and minuscule 
(estimates of Nazi Party membership range from 25 to 100). But we felt that the very 
virulence of Rockwell's messianic master-racism could transform a really searching 
conversation with the 48-year-old Fuhrer into a revealing portrait of both rampant 
racism and the pathology of fascism. The results — obtained for us by interviewer Alex 
Haley - explosively exceeded our expectations. 

Of the experience, Haley writes: 

"I called Rockwell at his Arlington, Virginia, headquarters and relayed PLAYBOY'S 
request for an exclusive interview. After assuring himself that I wasn't Jewish, he 
guardedly agreed. I didn't tell him I was a Negro. Five days later, as my taxi pulled up in 
front of Rockwell's 'International Headquarters, ' a nine-room white frame house in 
Arlington (since padlocked by the Internal Revenue Service, which is currently 
investigating the labyrinth of Nazi financial backing), I noticed a billboard-sized sign on 
couldn't help wondering what kind of welcome I'd receive when they got a look at my 
non- Aryan complexion. I didn't have long to wait,- the khaki-clad duty guard at the door 
stiffened as I stepped out of the cab and up the front stairs. When I identified myself, he 
ushered me uncertainly inside and told me to wait nearby in what he called 'the shrine 
room, ' a small, black walled chamber dimly lit by flickering red candles and adorned 
with American and Nazi flags, adjoining portraits of Adolf Hitler and George 
Washington, and a slightly larger, rather idealized painting of Rockwell himself- a self 
Portrait. On the table beside my chair sat a crudely bound and printed copy of Rockwell's 
self-published autobiography, 'This Time the World'; I was leafing through it when a pair 
of uniformed 'storm troopers' loomed suddenly in the doorway, gave the Nazi salute and 

informed me coolly that Commander Rockwell had ordered them to take me in one of the 
Party staff cars to his new personal headquarters. 

"Fifteen minutes later, with me and my tape recorder in the back and with two chaperons 
in the front, the car turned into a narrow, tree-lined road, slowed down as it passed a NO 
TRESPASSING sign (stamped with a skull and crossbones) and a leashed Doberman 
watchdog, and finally pulled up in front of a white, 16-room farmhouse emblazoned at 
floor - and second-story levels with four-foot-high red swastikas. About a dozen Nazis 
stared icily as the guards walked me past them and up the stairs to Rockwell's door, 
where a side-armed storm trooper frisked me expertly from head to toe. Within arm's 
reach, I noticed, was a wooden rack holding short combat lengths of sawed off iron pipe. 
Finding me 'clean, ' the guard ceremoniously opened the door, stepped inside, saluted, 
said, 'Sieg heil!' — echoed brusquely from within — then stood aside and nodded 
permission for me to come ahead. I did. 

"As if for dramatic effect, Rockwell was standing across the room, corncob pipe in hand, 
beneath a portrait of Adolf Hitler. Warned about my Negritude, he registered no surprise 
nor did he smile, speak or offer to shake hands. Instead, after surveying me up and down 
for a long moment, he motioned me peremptorily to a seat, then sat down himself in a 
nearby easy chair and watched silently while I set up my tape machine. Rockwell already 
had one of his own, I noticed, spinning on a nearby table. Then, with the burly guard 
standing at attention about halfway between us, he took out a pearl-handled revolver, 
placed it pointedly on the arm of his chair, sat back and spoke for the first time: I'm 
ready if you are. ' Without any further pleasantries, I turned on my machine. " 

PLAYBOY: Before we begin, Commander, I wonder if you'd mind telling me why 
you're keeping that pistol there at your elbow, and this armed bodyguard between us. 

ROCKWELL: Just a precaution. You may not be aware of the fact that I have received 
literally thousands of threats against my life. Most of them are from cranks, but some of 
them haven't been; there are bullet holes all over the out side of this building. Just last 
week, two gallon jugs of flaming gasoline were flung against the house right under my 
window. I keep this gun within reach and a guard beside me during interviews because 
I've been attacked too many times to take any chances. I haven't yet been jumped by an 
impostor, but it wasn't long ago that 17 guys claiming to be from a university came here 
to "interview" me; nothing untoward happened, but we later found out they were armed 
and planned to tear down the flag, burn the joint and beat me up. Only the fact that we 
were ready for that kind of rough stuff kept it from happening. 

We've never yet had to hurt anybody, but only because I think they all know we're ready 
to fight anytime. If you're who you claim to be, you have nothing to fear. 

PLAYBOY: I don't. 

ROCKWELL: Good. Just so we both know where we stand, I'd like to make some thing 
else crystal clear before we begin. 

I'm going to be honest and direct with you. You're here in your professional capacity; I'm 
here in my professional capacity. While here, you'll be treated well — but I see you're a 
black interviewer. 

It's nothing personal, but I want you to understand that I don't mix with your kind, and we 
call your race "niggers." 

PLAYBOY: I've been called "nigger" many times, Commander, but this is the first time 
I'm being paid for it. So you go right ahead. What have you got against us "niggers"? 

ROCKWELL: I've got nothing against you. I just think you people would be happier 
back in Africa where you came from. When the pilgrims got pushed around in Europe, 
they didn't have any sit-ins or crawl-ins; they got out and went to a wilderness and built a 
great civilization. 

PLAYBOY: It was built with the help of Negroes. 

ROCKWELL: Help or no, the white people in America simply aren't going to allow you 
to mix totally with them, whether you like it or not. 

PLAYBOY: The purpose of the civil rights movement is equality of rights and 
opportunity, Commander — not miscegenation, as you seem to be implying. 

ROCKWELL: Equality may be the stated purpose, but race mixing is what it boils down 
to in practice; and the harder you people push for that, the madder white people are going 
to get. 

PLAYBOY: Do you think you're entitled to speak for white people? 

ROCKWELL: Malcolm X said the same thing I'm saying. 

PLAYBOY: He certainly was in no position to speak for white people. 

ROCKWELL: Well, I think I am speaking for the majority of whites when I say that 
race mixing just isn't going to work. I think, therefore, that we should take the billions of 
dollars now being wasted on foreign aid to Communist countries which hate us and give 
that money to our own niggers to build their own civilized nation in Africa. 

PLAYBOY: Apart from the fact that Africa is already spoken for territorially by 
sovereign nations, all but a few of the 20,000,000 Negroes in this country are native-born 
Americans who have just as much right to remain here as you do, Commander. 

ROCKWELL: That's not my point. When two people prove incompatible in marriage 
and they can't live together, they separate; and the mass of average niggers simply don't 
"fit" in modern American society. A leopard doesn't change his spots just because you 
bring him in from the jungle and try to housebreak him and turn him into a pet. He may 
learn to sheathe his claws in order to beg a few scraps off the dinner table, and you may 
teach him to be a beast of burden, but it doesn't pay to forget that he'll al ways be what he 
was born: a wild animal. 

PLAYBOY: We're talking about human beings, not animals. 

ROCKWELL: We're talking about niggers and there's no doubt in my mind that they're 
basically animalistic. 

PLAYBOY: In what way? 

ROCKWELL: Spiritually. Our white kids are being perverted, like Pavlov's dogs, by 
conditioned-reflex training. For instance, every time a white kid is getting a piece of ass, 
the car radio is blaring nigger bebop. Under such powerful stimuli, it's not long before a 
kid begins unconsciously to connect these savage sounds with intense pleasure and thus 
transfers his natural pleasurable reactions in sex to an unnatural love of the chaotic and 
animalistic nigger music, which destroys a love of order and real beauty among our kids. 
This is how you niggers corrupt our white kids — without even laying a dirty hand on 
them. Not that you wouldn't like to. 

PLAYBOY: It's sometimes the other way around, Commander. 

ROCKWELL: Well, I'll have to admit one great failing of my own people: The white 
man is getting too soft. The niggers are forced to do hard manual labor, and as a result, 
most nigger bucks are healthy animals — rugged and tough, the way nature intended a 
male to be. When you take a look at how the average, bourgeois white man spends his 
time, though hunched over a desk, going to the ballet, riding around on his electric lawn 
mower or squatting on his fur-lined toilet seat you can't help but observe how soft and 
squishy a lot of white men allow them selves to become; especially some of the skinny, 
pasty-faced white peace creeps with their long hair, their fairy-looking clothes and the big 
yellow stripe up their spineless back. What normal woman would want one of these 
cruds? Unfortunately, some of our white women, especially in the crazy leftist 
environment on our college campuses, get carried away by Jewish propaganda into 
betraying their own instincts by choosing a healthy black buck instead of one of these 
skinny, pansified white peace creeps who swarm on our college campuses. 

PLAYBOY: Are you implying that the Negro male is sexually superior to the white 

ROCKWELL: Certainly not. The average white workingman, the vast majority of white 
men, are just as tough and ballsy as any nigger who ever lived. It's the white intellectuals 
who have allowed themselves to be degenerate physically, mentally and especially 

spiritually, until I am forced to admit that a healthy nigger garbage man is certainly 
superior physically and sexually to a pasty-faced skinny white peace creep. 

PLAYBOY: Do you consider Negroes superior to white men in any other way? 

ROCKWELL: On the contrary — I consider them inferior to the white man in every 
other way. 

PLAYBOY: That's a fairly sweeping generalization. Can you document it? 

ROCKWELL: When I speak at colleges, they often ask me the same question. I always 
answer with a question of my own: How do colleges determine the superior and inferior 
students? By performance, that's how! Look at history; investigate the different races. 
The Chinese perform — they've created a great civilization. All the white races certainly 
perform. But the nigger race, until very recently, has done absolutely nothing. 

PLAYBOY: How recently? 

ROCKWELL: The past 20 or 30 years. 

PLAYBOY: What about the contribution of those millions of African Negroes and their 
descendants — along with that of migrants of every color from all over the world — who 
helped found and build this country? 

ROCKWELL: I don't dismiss it, but the fact is that any contribution of the niggers has 
been almost entirely manual and menial. Horses could have done most of it, or well- 
trained monkeys from the same trees they were flushed out of back in Africa. They've 
picked up a few more tricks since then — but only what they've learned from the white 

PLAYBOY: Recent archaeological findings have documented the existence of advanced 
black African civilizations centuries before the dawn of comparable cultures in Europe. 

ROCKWELL: If they were so far ahead of us then, why are they still shooting blow 
darts at each other while we're launching rockets to the moon? 

PLAYBOY: The American space program isn't a segregated project, Commander. There 
are many Negroes working for NASA and in the space industry. 

ROCKWELL: This only proves my point. A few niggers, like trained chimpanzees, 
have been pushed and jammed into such things as the space program by our race mixing 
Presidents and the Federal Government; but niggers didn't originate any of the ideas or 
develop the fantastic organizations capable of putting men into space. The niggers in 
NASA are like chimpanzees who have learned to ride bicycles. A few trained monkeys 
riding bicycles doesn't prove that chimpanzees could invent or build or even think about a 
bicycle. The fact is that the average nigger is not as intelligent as the average white man. 

PLAYBOY: There's no genetic or anthropological evidence to substantiate that. 

ROCKWELL: I know you're going to say you can show me thousands of intelligent 
niggers and stupid white men. I'm well aware that there are exceptions on both sides. All 
I'm saying is that the average of your people is below the average of my people; and the 
pure-black ones are even further below us. I have living evidence of this sitting right in 
front of me. 

PLAYBOY: If you mean me, I'm far from pure black — as you can see. 

ROCKWELL: That's just it: You're an intelligent person; I enjoy talking to you. But, 
you're not pure black like your ancestors in the Congo. Now, this may insult you, but 
we're not here to throw pansies at each other: There had to be some white people in your 
background somewhere, or you wouldn't be brown instead of black. Right? 

PLAYBOY: Right. 

ROCKWELL: Well, I'm saying that your intelligence comes from the blood of my 
people. Whenever they trot out some smart nigger and say, "See? Look how brilliant 
niggers are," what they usually show you is a part-white man with some nigger blood in 
him. This doesn't prove that niggers are great. On the contrary; it proves that white blood 
can make a part-nigger more intelligent. 

PLAYBOY: That's not proof, Commander. Can you offer any authoritative 
documentation to support your view? 

ROCKWELL: A psychologist named G.O. Ferguson made a definitive study of the 
connection between the amount of white blood and intelligence in niggers. He tested all 
the nigger school children in Virginia and proved that the pure black niggers did only 
about 70 percent as well as the white children. Niggers with one white grandparent did 
about 75 percent as well as the white children. Niggers with two white grandparents did 
still better, and niggers with three white grandparents did almost as well as the white 
kids. Since all of these nigger children shared exactly the same environment as niggers, 
it's impossible to claim that environment produced these tremendous changes in 

[Ferguson's study, conducted in 1916, we later learned, has since been discredited by 
every major authority on genetics and anthropology; they call it a pseudoscientific 
rationale for racism, based on an inadequate and i, irepi entativi sampling, predicated 
on erroneous assumptions, and statistically loaded to prove its point. -Ed.] 

PLAYBOY: In his book A Profile of the Negro American, the world-famed sociologist 
T.F. Pettigrew states flatly that the degree of white ancestry does not relate in any way to 
Negro I.Q. scores. According to Pettigrew, the brightest Negro yet reported — with a 
tested I.Q. of 200 — had no traceable Caucasian heritage whatever. 

ROCKWELL: The fact that you can show me one very black individual who is superior 
to me doesn't convince me that the average nigger is superior. The startling fact I see is 
that the lighter they are, the smarter they are, and the blacker they are, the dumber they 


PLAYBOY: That's an opinion, Commander, not a fact. Can you back it up with any 
concrete evidence? 

ROCKWELL: The evidence of lifelong experience. I've never met a black nigger I 
mean a real black one, so black he looks purple — that can talk, and think as, say, you 
can. When I do, then maybe I'll change my opinion. All the really black niggers, are 
either what you call Uncle Toms, or they're revolutionists, or they just want to loaf, loot 
and rape. 

PLAYBOY: Most sociologists would agree that the vast majority of Negroes — dark 
skinned or otherwise — don't fit into any of those categories. 

ROCKWELL: Like I said, there are always exceptions — but everybody knows that they 
prove the rule. Evolution shows that in the long run, if the superior mixes with the 
inferior, the product is halfway between, and inferior to what you started with in the 
original superior group — in other words, mongrelized. 

PLAYBOY: The words superior and inferior have no meaning to geneticists, 
Commander — and neither does mongrelization. Every authority in the field has attested 
that the world's racial groups are genetically indistinguishable from one another. All men, 
in other words including hybrids — are created equal. 

ROCKWELL: You're bringing tears to my eyes. Don't you know that all this equality 
garbage was started by a Jew anthropologist named Franz Boas from Columbia 
University? Boas was followed by an other Jew from Columbia named Gene Weltfish. 
And our present Jew expert preaching equality is another Jew named Ashley Montagu. 
Any anthropologist who dares to preach the facts known by any farmer in the barnyard 
that breeds differ in quality are simply not allowed to survive in the universities or in 
publishing, because he can't earn a living. You never hear from that side. 

But Carleton Putnam has written a wonderful book called Race and Reason, showing that 
there is plenty of scholarly evidence to back up my contention that the nigger race is 
inherently inferior to the white race intellectually. [Putnam, a former president of Delta 
Airlines, has no academic credentials in sociology, anthropology or genetics. Explaining 
its "Not Recommended" classification for his book --fully titled Race and Reason: A 
Yankee View — Book Review Digest writes: "At no time does the author show himself 
qualified to speak as a scientist. "-Ed.] This equality garbage is straight Soviet, 
Lysenkian biology direct from the Communist Lysenko, who preached that by changing 
the environment you could grow one plant from another plant's seeds. This is the doctrine 
that's destroying our society — cause it's not true. You can't grow from corn by changing 
the environment. 

PLAYBOY: You can't grow wheat from corn by changing anything. In any case, we're 
discussing human beings, not foodstuffs. 

ROCKWELL: I don't feel like quibbling. What I'm saying is that I believe the Jews have 
consciously perverted the study of anthropology and biology and but genetics in order to 
reach this phoney conclusion ~ and thus destroy the great white race. 

PLAYBOY: What phony conclusion? 

ROCKWELL: The totally erroneous notion that heredity has nothing to do with why, 
for example, the niggers have lower scholastic averages and higher illegitimacy rates than 

PLAYBOY: According to geneticists, it doesn't. In any case, how would acceptance of 
this notion lead to the destruction of the white race? 

ROCKWELL: By deluding people into believing that the nigger is only 
"underprivileged" rather than inherently inferior; into believing, therefore, that he can be 
cleaned up and smartened up by letting him eat in our restaurants, study in our schools, 
move into our neighborhoods. The next inevitable step is to take him into our beds — and 
this would lead to the mongrelization, and hence the destruction, of the white race. 

PLAYBOY: You said that the Jews are behind this plot. Since they're whites themselves, 
how would they benefit from their own destruction? 

ROCKWELL: They won't be mingling like the rest of us. They believe they're too pure 
to mix; they think they're "the chosen people" ~ chosen to rule the world. But the only 
world they could rule would be a world of inferior beings. And as long as the white man 
is pure, they cannot succeed. But when the white man permits himself to be mixed with 
black men, then the Jews can master him. 


ROCKWELL: They already run the niggers. Except for the Black Muslims, the Jews 
run practically all the big civil rights organizations. 

PLAYBOY: You're misinformed, Commander. The key posts in all but one of the major 
civil rights groups — the NAACP — are held entirely by Negroes. 

ROCKWELL: They're just the front men. The Jews operate behind the scenes, pulling 
the strings and holding the moneybags. 

PLAYBOY: The Jews who belong and contribute to these groups serve strictly in an 
advisory capacity. 

ROCKWELL: You're misinformed. As I started to say, Jews want to run the white 
people just the way they run the niggers. Once they get the white people mixed with the 
black people, the white people will be just as easy to run as the niggers. 


ROCKWELL: Because when you mix superior and inferior, like I told you, the product 
is inferior - halfway between the two. The Jews would be able to outwit and 
outmaneuver and thus manipulate the mongrelized white man just the way he already 
does the niggers. That's what the whole so-called civil rights movement is all about; and 
they're just liable to get away with it if the good white Christians of this country don't 
wake up and get together before it's too late to restore the natural order of things. 

PLAYBOY: And what's that? 

ROCKWELL: Separation. In nature, all things of a similar being tend to group together. 
Chimpanzees do not run with baboons; they run with chimpanzees. This is the natural 
order of people, too. Even in thoroughly integrated colleges, when I visit them, I notice 
that niggers usually sit and eat at tables with other niggers - even though they don't have 
to. And the white people sit with other white people. I think this is the natural tendency, 
and to attempt to pervert this is to fight nature. 

PLAYBOY: You fail to make an important moral and constitutional distinction between 
choosing to associate with one's own race and being forced to do so. Left to themselves, 
some people will mingle and some won't; and most Americans think this is just the way it 
ought to be. 

ROCKWELL: That's all very noble sounding; it brings a lump to my throat. But what 
does it boil down to in practice? Every time your people move into my neighborhood, the 
white people move out; and often there's violence - by peaceful, decent white men who 
never before committed any, but are outraged at the black invasion. 

PLAYBOY: That's an exaggeration, Commander. The record shows that fewer and 
fewer white people are moving out when Negroes move into white neighborhoods; and 
the fact is that violence very seldom occurs because of Negro "block-busting." In most 
instances, after an initial period of strain, the newcomers are being quietly accepted. 

ROCKWELL: I don't know what neighborhoods you've been hanging around in, but my 
own experience has been that violence and animosity are the rule rather than the 
exception. And that goes double when one of my guys moves into a place like Watts. 
Your people don't just riot; they try to kill him. This is natural. Their instincts are coming 
out, and they always will. And any effort to override these instincts, or deny they exist, 
will inevitably be unsuccessful. Nature will prevail. 

PLAYBOY: Negro hostility toward Nazis could hardly be offered as proof that 
integration is unnatural. Nor is anti-Nazi violence confined to Negroes. 

ROCKWELL: You're right -- the Jews are even better at it. 

PLAYBOY: You've been quoted as saying that the Watts, Harlem and Rochester riots, 
among others, were actually instigated by Jews. Do you have any evidence to substantiate 
that charge? 

ROCKWELL: I didn't say they started them; I said they engineered them. First of all, 
they tell the niggers, "You people don't have to obey the laws you don't like" just like 
Martin Luther Coon preaches. If a cop arrests a nigger, it's "police brutality." And he's 
told he should fight back. Whenever a policeman tries to do his duty, the Jew-oriented 
niggers have been told to try and take the prisoner away from this brutal cop. The Jews 
turn him into a psychological bomb — so that when a cop comes along and does his duty 
it's just like touching a match to a fuse. Boom — up it goes! Like it did in Watts. Like 
they do in Harlem. 

PLAYBOY: In both the Watts and Harlem riots, the bulk of the property damage was 
suffered by Jewish-owned stores and businesses. Why would the Jews foment violence 
that's bound to result in the destruction of their own property? 

ROCKWELL: It just happens that most of the businessmen making money off the 
niggers in the ghettos are Jews. The big Jews in charge are willing to sacrifice the little 
Jews just as a general sacrifices some troops to win a war. 

PLAYBOY: But what could any Jews possibly win by engineering riots? 

ROCKWELL: They're just natural-born agitators. They just can't help coming in and 
getting everybody all stirred up and they're always the ones to suffer for it. Every time! 
But they just can't quit. It's irrational as hell. With all their liberalism and their preaching 
about equal rights for niggers, they've promoted disorder and chaos that's eventually 
going to bury them. The liquor dealers are getting it now. Last summer, all those kike 
store owners in Watts kept screaming, "Oy! Stop! Listen! We're your friends! " ~ while 
the coons beat their brains out. And that's just the beginning, just a sample of things to 
come. This summer I predict that racial violence even more terrible than Watts will erupt 
- all because of these two trouble-making inferior races. 

PLAYBOY: In judging Negroes "inferior" to whites, you said a while ago that you made 
this appraisal on the basis of "performance." Do you find Jews inferior for the same 

ROCKWELL: I've never accused the Jews of being incapable of performing. As a 
matter of fact, I think there's a good chance they're superior to everybody else in terms of 
actual mental capabilities. I think the average Jew is probably sharper intellectually than 
the average gentile, because for years and years he's had to live by his wits. 
Consequently, there has evolved a race of Jews who are more agile mentally than the rest 
of us. 

PLAYBOY: In what way do you consider Jews inferior, then? 

ROCKWELL: Spiritually. I believe that a human being, in order to be a successful 
person, in addition to performing — inventing a rocket or something — has got to have 
something he believes in, some thing more than his own survival, some thing that's a little 
bigger than himself. The Jews don't. They've even got a rabbi now who admits he's an 
atheist Rabbi Sherwin Wine of Birmingham, Michigan. 

PLAYBOY: Perhaps you didn't know that the current Church movement toward 
disbelief in God originated among the Protestant clergy. In any case, Rabbi Wine's 
convictions are a minority voice and could not in any way be said to represent those of 
the Jewish faith in general. Most Jews continue to believe in God, as set down in the 

ROCKWELL: Jews talk a lot about God. But actually their god, just like Marx said, is 
money. Cash! This is where the Jews fail ~ in their lack of idealism. Most of them are 
strictly materialists at heart. Wherever the Jews have gone, they've moved into a friendly, 
unsuspecting country and promptly started to glut on its people and resources. They think 
they're engaging in business, but actually what they're doing is eating the country up 
alive. And when people begin to resent their viciousness and greed, and either kick the 
Jews out or kill them, they always scream "Persecution!" That's not persecution. It's self- 

PLAYBOY: Are you implying that Hitler was justified in exterminating 6,000,000 
European Jews? 

ROCKWELL: I don't believe for one minute that any 6,000,000 Jews were exterminated 
by Hitler. It never happened. You want me to prove it to you? 

PLAYBOY: Go ahead. 

ROCKWELL: We have the figures for the number of Jews in the world in 1939, before 
World War Two: 15,688,259; and the figures for the number living after World War 
Two: 18,000,000. Now, if you take the number of Jews for after World War Two — and 
add the 6,000,000 you say were gassed, you get a total of 24,000,000 ~ which means that 
there would have to have been a 50-percent increase in the Jewish population during a 
period of about five years. Even people as good at sex as the Jews couldn't possibly 
reproduce that fast. So you see, the Jews' own figures convict them as liars! 

PLAYBOY: What's your source for these statistics? 

ROCKWELL: The pre-War figures came from the 1947 World Almanac, page 219; and 
the post-War figures from The New York Times, February 22, 1948, in an article by 
Hanson Baldwin. 

[Subsequent investigation revealed that the World Almanac figure of 15,688,259 is 
correct as claimed. The post-War figures cited by Hanson Baldwin in The New York 
Times were in the following context: "In these countries (Palestine and Egypt), the Jews 
are tied by bonds of religion to the rest of the 15 to 18 million Jews of the world. " 
According to every official source, however, Baldwin's estimates are in error. The figures 
compiled by the Population Reference Bureau in Washington, D. C, show that the 
world's Jewish population declined from 16,600,000 to 11,400,000 between 1939 and 
1945 - while European Jewry decreased 6,000,000 during that same period, from 
9,700,000 to 3,700,000. -Ed.] 

PLAYBOY: Population figures aside, do you deny the validity of documentary 
photographic evidence showing the gas chambers themselves, and the thousands of 
bodies piled up in concentration camp trenches? 

ROCKWELL: I emphatically deny that there is any valid proof that innocent Jews were 
systematically murdered by the Nazis. The photographs you've seen that have been 
passed off as pictures of dead Jews have been identified as pictures of the corpses of 
German civilians — mostly women and children and refugees who were killed in the one- 
night Allied bombing of Dresden, which slaughtered 350,000 innocent people. 

PLAYBOY: By whom have these pictures been so identified? 

ROCKWELL: By Matt Koehl, my research chief, who says that you can recognize the 
buildings in the background of these so-called Nazi atrocity photographs as buildings in 

PLAYBOY: We don't accept the findings of your research chief as authoritative. 

ROCKWELL: I have conclusive evidence to prove that some of these "documentary" 
photographs are frauds, pure and simple. In a magazine published by the Jews and sold 
all over America, they show a bottle supposedly containing soap made by the Germans 
out of the poor, dead, gassed Jews. 

PLAYBOY: What evidence do you have for claiming that it's fraudulent? 

ROCKWELL: Common sense. That soap could have been made out of anything; it 
could have been melted down from a dozen bars of Lifebuoy. But here's my ultimate 
proof of just how utterly ridiculous all the anti-Nazi literature you've read really is: an 
article in Sir magazine, March 1958, on how the Nazis gassed and burned and murdered 
everybody. It's by "a former corporal of the SS" as told to an American Army master 
sergeant who signs himself "Lew Cor." Well, "Lew Cor" is simply Rockwell spelled 
backward. I wrote it myself - as a test. I wrote the vilest lies I could think of! And here 
they all are in print in this magazine. Look at the photographs! These are supposed to be 
actual shots of Nazi victims mentioned in the article — victims that I invented! 

PLAYBOY: Your own willingness to lie about Nazi atrocities doesn't prove that the 
Jews have done the same thing, Commander. Do you also dismiss the testimony of 
hundreds of prison camp survivors who have given eyewitness testimony about Nazi 

ROCKWELL: I have an affidavit from a Jewish doctor, a prisoner at Auschwitz, who 
says there were no gas chambers. 

PLAYBOY: Do you have that affidavit? 

ROCKWELL: I'll send you a photostat. [It has not arrived. -Ed.] I believe the gas 
chambers in these concentration camps were built after the War — by Jewish Army 
officers. We know this for sure: It was mostly Jewish Army officers who went in there to 
liberate these camps. And it was mostly Jewish Army CIC officers who were in charge of 
the Nuremberg trials. It was they who tortured innocent Nazis using any kind of vile 
method they could to cook up phony evidence. 

PLAYBOY: Can you prove these charges? 

ROCKWELL: I know of several cases where American personnel resigned in disgust at 
the methods used. 

PLAYBOY: That doesn't prove that torture was used to extract false testimony. In any 
case, you still haven't said whether you dismiss eyewitness testimony of Nazi atrocities. 

ROCKWELL: Certainly I do. I've lost count of the times I've been in court, after being 
assaulted and beaten by gangs of Jews, and seen these same Jews get up on the witness 
stand, with tears pouring down their faces, and tell how I attacked them! The Jews are the 
world's master liars! They are geniuses at it. Why, when a kike is up on a witness stand, 
he doesn't even need onions to start the tears pouring. 

PLAYBOY: It's said that you keep a model gas chamber here at your headquarters. Is 
that true? 

ROCKWELL: No, but we have an electric chair at Sing Sing that's already done a great 
deed for America in frying the Rosenbergs; and there are hundreds of thousands more 
Rosenbergs running around America who need frying - or gassing. 

PLAYBOY: By "more Rosenbergs," do you mean more Jews or more Communist spies? 

ROCKWELL: More Communist Jews. They're practically the same thing. 

PLAYBOY: Are you saying that many Jews are Communists, or that many Communists 
are Jewish? 

ROCKWELL: I use the term "Communist Jews" in exactly the same sense that I would 
say "Italian gangsters." Most Italians are not gangsters, but everybody knows that the 
Mafia is mostly Italians. Well, my experience is that communism is as Jewish as the 
Mafia is Italian. It's a fact that almost all of the convicted spies for communism have been 
atheist Jews like the Rosenbergs. And international communism was invented by the Jew 
Karl Marx and has since been led mostly by Jews - like Trotsky. 

PLAYBOY: Stalin, Khrushchev, Brezhnev, Kosygin and Mao Tse-tung, among many 
others, certainly aren't Jews. 

ROCKWELL: The Jews operate nowadays mostly as spies and agitators for the Reds. 
Mind you, I'm not saying that there aren't vast numbers of Jews who despise communism. 

PLAYBOY: Yet you say there are hundreds of thousands of Jewish Communists in 

ROCKWELL: Perhaps more. 

PLAYBOY: What evidence do you have to back up that figure? 

ROCKWELL: Plain statistics. Fourteen of the 16 Americans convicted in U.S. courts of 
treason as Communist spies have been racial Jews and one of them was a nigger. Of the 
21 Communist leaders convicted in judge Medina's court, 19 were racial Jews. Of the so- 
called "second-string Politburo" Communist leaders rounded up, more than 90 per cent 
were racial Jews. 

PLAYBOY: The total number of convicted spies who you say are Jewish comes to 33. 
That's far from hundreds of thousands. 

ROCKWELL: There's also evidence in black and white. Even in their own publications, 
the Jews do not hide from the Jewishness of communism. It's there for anybody to see. 
For instance, the largest circulation Communist newspaper in America is not The Worker, 
but a paper published in Yiddish called The Morning Freiheit. Any American can get a 
copy of this Jewish Communist newspaper and read, in the English portions, the open 
Communist treason they're preaching. 

PLAYBOY: The views of The Morning Freiheit certainly can't be said to reflect those of 
most American Jews, Commander. Can you give a specific example of a pro-Marxist 
statement by any recognized spokesman for American Jewry? 

ROCKWELL: Just one? That's easy. Let's take a statement made by Rabbi Stephen 
Wise; he's one of the leading spokesmen for American Jewry. 

PLAYBOY: He died in 1949. 

ROCKWELL: Well, before he died, he wrote, "Some call it communism; I call it 
Judaism." That's a direct quote. I'd say that's putting it pretty unequivocally, wouldn't 

PLAYBOY: Can you produce proof of that statement? 

ROCKWELL: Certainly. I'lL send it to you. 

[The proof has not arrived, nor was Commander Rockwell able to tell us the name of the 
publication in which the alleged statement appeared. An official at Manhattan's Hebrew 
Union College, where Rabbi Wise's entire works are kept in archive, later said that no 
such statement appears anywhere in the late rabbi's writings. Rabbi Edward Kline, 
Wise's successor at New York's Free Synagogue, told us further that no such quote 
appears in any of Wise's speeches; nor could he, as a lifelong foe of communism, said 
Kline, have been capable of making such a remark. Confronted with this evidence, 
Rockwell later retracted the allegation. -Ed] 

PLAYBOY: Do you have any tangible evidence to substantiate your charges? 

ROCKWELL: Would you accept evidence based on a statistical sampling? 

PLAYBOY: Let's hear it. 

ROCKWELL: Out of the number of Jews that I have known personally, a tremendous 
proportion ~ at least 50 percent, maybe as high as 85 or 90 percent — have been pro-Red; 
either card-carrying Communists or accessories before or after the fact, either openly and 
knowingly aiding and abetting communism and promoting the Communist overthrow of 
this Government, or assisting the Communist enemies who are killing Americans, or 
consciously suppressing legal evidence which would tend to convict such traitors. 

PLAYBOY: Your own conjectures about the political sympathies of Jews you've known 
personally, Commander, could hardly be accepted as evidence to support your allegations 
about them, let alone the "hundreds of thousands" you say are pro-Red. In any case, you 
say they "need frying-or gassing." On what grounds? 

ROCKWELL: Treason. Everybody - not just Jews ~ with suspicious records of pro 
communism, or treasonable Zionism, or any subversive attack on this country or its 
people, should be investigated and arrested and the evidence placed before a grand jury. 
If they're indicted, they should be tried for treason, and if they're convicted, they should 
be killed. 


ROCKWELL: Well, there are going to be hundreds of thousands of Jewish traitors to 
execute, don't forget. I don't see how you can strap that many people in electric chairs and 

get the job done before they all die of old age; so it seems to me that mass gas chambers 
are going to be the only solution for the Communist traitor problem in America. 

PLAYBOY: Your suggestion of gas chambers as a "solution for the Communist traitor 
problem" is reminiscent of the "final solution for the Jewish problem" instituted by the 
Nazis in Germany. Are you planning to lead another anti-Semitic crusade along the lines 
laid down by Hitler? 

ROCKWELL: The crusade I plan to lead will be much broader in scope than that. In 
Germany, Hitler produced a local "lab experiment"; he provided me with an ideology in 
the same way that Marx provided one for Lenin. My task is to turn this ideology into a 
world movement. And I'll never be able to accomplish that by preaching pure Aryanism 
as Hitler did — by glorifying the Nordic Germanic people as a "master race." There is an 
easily identifiable master race, however: the white race. You can find it all over the 
world. This is what I'm fighting for — not Aryanism, but white Christian solidarity. In the 
long run, I intend to win over the people of Greece, of Germany, of Italy, of England, of 
Canada, of France, of Spain, of Latin America, of Rhodesia, of South Africa the people 
of every white Christian country in the world. All the white Christian countries of the 
earth I would try to mold into one racial, religious, political and military entity. I want 
them eventually to have hegemony. 

PLAYBOY: Over the nonwhite, non-Christian nations? 

ROCKWELL: Over the Afro-Asian bloc, which is to me the ultimate danger the earth 
faces. Worse than the bomb! These people have something both communism and 
democracy have lost. They're fanatics! They're full of this wild-eyed belief and vitality 
that the white man has gradually been losing. If they ever unite, there will be almost a 
billion of them against the white man — a ratio of seven to one. They're breeding so fast 
that the odds could easily be ten or fifteen to one before too long. When these billions of 
primitive colored people are able to control an atom or an H-bomb, as Red China may 
soon be able to do, we could wipe out a hundred million of them, and there would still be 
plenty more who kept coming. The white race couldn't take that kind of a blood letting 
for long. We'd be wiped out! The huge masses of semi-animal colored people would 
simply sweep over us, and there'd be nothing we could do about it. It would be the 
ultimate victory of quantity over quality ~ unless the white people unite first. We're in 
real trouble if they get together first. But make no mistake: There's going to be a battle of 
Armageddon, and it's going to be not between communism and democracy, but between 
the colored millions of the world and the small but elite corps of white men; ideological, 
economic and philosophical issues will play little or no part in it. When the time comes ~ 
and it's later than we think — I plan to be ready not only to defend myself, but to lead the 
millions of whites all over the world who today are foolishly pretending they don't know 
what's going on. 

PLAYBOY: Estimates of your nationwide membership range from 25 to 100. Do you 
propose to lead the white Christian nations with this handful of followers? 

ROCKWELL: In the first place, we're a world movement, just as communism is a world 
movement rather than a local or national organization. We've launched world union of 
National Socialists, of which I am the international commander. In the second place, 
you've got those figures wrong. In this country alone, we've got about 500 storm troopers 
~ that's men ready for street action — plus about 1500 Party members. Also about 15,000 
correspondents — people sympathetic to our cause who write in and donate. And our 
membership abroad numbers in the thousands. 

PLAYBOY: Where abroad? 

ROCKWELL: Let me name you countries. Argentina: Horst Eichmann, Adolf 
Eichmann's son, is our leader there; he's either in jail or disappeared, but our movement is 
growing there. In Australia, our movement is temporarily busted up, but my leader — an 
American — is running around undercover, trying to get his group back together again. In 
Spain, we've got a pretty good undercover movement, but Franco doesn't appreciate it, so 
we have to stay under cover. In England, Colin Jordan is operating wide open — and 
doing very well. In France, we've got a damned good group; they were all arrested just a 
while back. In Belgium, I've got an ex-SS paratrooper in charge, and he's doing very well. 
In Sweden, we've got a tremendous group; they were all just arrested. In Austria - our 
guy is in jail, so things are pretty well broken up there. In Canada, John Beattie is leading 
a tremendous and successful movement. Our leader in Chile is in jail, In Germany, we've 
gone undercover; our leader is going to jail shortly. In Holland, we're doing fine. In 
Ireland, they're coming along fast. In Italy, we've got a real tremendous movement. In 
Japan, one of our guys stabbed the Socialist deputy. Remember? New Zealand is coming 
along fine. But Norway isn't doing too good. We've a fine group in South Africa now, 
though, and we've got a group in Rhodesia now, too. So you see, we've got groups all 
over the world. They're still little. But after all, it's only been 20 years since Hitler died. 
Twenty years after Christ was crucified, there were almost no Christians. Right now, the 
followers of the swastika are in the catacombs, like the original followers of the cross 
were then. I can't say we're a Christian movement in the ordinary sense; in fact, I 
personally am an agnostic. But I deeply believe that there is a power greater than ours 
that's helping us in our fight to keep the world natural and racially pure - as opposed to 
perverted and mongrelized. We've got an ideology, a dedication, a belief, a vitality to 
match the zealotry of the fanatical Asian- African bloc. That's why we're going to grow; 
that's why-eventually we're going to prevail. 

PLAYBOY: Can you tell us just how you plan to go about fulfilling this destiny with or 
without divine intervention? 

ROCKWELL: I have a four-phase plan. The first phase is to reach the masses; you can 
do nothing until you've reached the masses. In order to reach them without money, 
without status, without a public platform — you have to be come a dramatic figure. Now 
in order to achieve that, I've had to take a lot of garbage: being called a nut and a monster 
and everything else. But by hanging up the swastika, I reach the masses. The second 
phase is to disabuse them of the false picture they have gotten of me, to educate them 
about what my real program is. The third phase will be to organize the people I've 

educated into a political entity. And the fourth phase will be to use that political entity as 
a machine to win political power. 

That's the plan. They all overlap, of course. Right now we're about 50 percent involved in 
phase two; we're actually beginning to educate people - in interviews like this one, in 
speaking engagements at colleges and the like. The other 50 percent is still phase one — 
just raising hell to keep people aware that there's such a thing as the American Nazi 
Party, not caring what they call us, as long as they call us something. 

PLAYBOY: What kind of hell-raising? 

ROCKWELL: Well, I haven't done it yet but one of my ambitions is to rent me a plane 
and skywrite a big smoke swastika and fly over New York City — on Hitler's birthday. 
That sort of thing. Or I might get one plane to do the Star of David, and I'll come in 
another plane and squat and do brown smoke all over it - on Ben Gurion's birthday. I've 
checked Federal regulations, and they couldn't do a thing about it. All I need is the money 
to do it. But that's in the future. One of the biggest things we've already done to 
propagandize ourselves is our "Coon-ard Lines Boat Tickets to Africa." It's our most 
popular mail-order item; white high school students order them by the thousands. Would 
you like me to read you what a ticket entitles one nigger to? 

PLAYBOY: Go ahead. 

ROCKWELL: Six things. One: a free trip to Africa on a Cadillac-shaped luxury liner, 
Two: choice cuts of all the bananas and missionaries desired en route, and a free jar of 
meat tenderizer. NAACP members may sit up front and twist to Martin Luther Coon's 
jazz band. Three: a barrel of hair-grease axle grease delicately scented with nigger sweat. 
Four: a framed picture of Eleanor Roosevelt and Harry Golden. Five: an unguarded 
chicken coop and watermelon patch on deck, plus fish and chips for breakfast. And six: 
plenty of wine, marijuana, heroin and other refreshments. And six: On the reverse side, 
we offer white liberal peace creeps a year's supply of "Instant Nigger." It's described as 
"Easy-mixing powder! just sprinkle this dingy black dust on any sidewalk, just make 
water on it, and presto! Hundreds of niggers spring up — little niggers, big niggers, fat 
niggers, skinny niggers, light niggers, midnight-black niggers, red niggers, even Jew 
niggers." It reads here, "Why wait? With this Instant Nigger Powder, any nigger-loving 
beatnik peace creep can have all the niggers he can stand!" Want one? Compliments of 
the house. 

PLAYBOY: Is mail-order hate literature your main source of income? 

ROCKWELL: That, plus initiation fees from new members; plus small donations from 
those who believe in what we're trying to do; plus the proceeds from special events like 
one of our "hate-nannies." 

PLAYBOY: What are they? 

ROCKWELL: Big musical jamborees. We hold them on patriotic holidays. 

PLAYBOY: Would you give an example of a hate-nanny lyric? 

ROCKWELL: Sure. Remember, you asked for it: "Ring that bell, shout for joy ... white 
man's day is here ... Gather all those equals up ... Herd them on the pier ... America for 
whites ... Africa for blacks ... Send those apes back to the trees ... Ship those niggers back 
... Twenty million ugly coons are ready on their pier ... America for whites ... Africa for 
blacks ... Ring that bell, shout for joy ... The white man's day is here ... Hand that chimp 
his ugly stick ... Hand that buck his spear ..." That's just the first part of that song. Do you 
want to hear more of it? 

PLAYBOY: No, we get the general idea. 

ROCKWELL: Well, I believe a man ought to hoist up his flag and tell you what he is. 
And that's just what we do here. 

PLAYBOY: Are there any anti-Jewish ballads in your hate-nanny song bag? 

ROCKWELL: Oh, yes! One of our favorites is The Jews Are Through in 72. It goes to 
the tune of Mademoiselle from Armentieres. Want to hear it? 

PLAYBOY: We'll listen. 

ROCKWELL: "The Jews are through in 72, parlez-vous ... The Jews are through in 72, 
parlez-vous ... We'll feed them bacon till they yell ... And send them all to kosher hell ... 
Hinky dinky, parlez-vous ..." The chorus repeats, and then comes the next verse: "We'll 
steal the rabbi's knife and sheath ... And make him do it with his teeth ... Hinky dinky, 
parlez-vous." The rest of it I don't remember. 

PLAYBOY: The song says the Jews will be "through in 72." Is that date significant in 
some way? 

ROCKWELL: 1972 is the year I'm going to be elected President on the National 
Socialist ticket. Five years of the Johnson Administration will leave the country so torn 
with racial tensions that some Republican will be a cinch to win in 1968. Then, in 1969, a 
great economic catastrophe is going to hit this country. 

PLAYBOY: The nation's economy has never been healthier than it is today, and most 
economists predict that the end of the boom is not in sight. 

ROCKWELL: Nevertheless, there will be an economic catastrophe, though of what 
nature I'm not sure. It could be an inflation. I say so because all this build-up is based on 
sand. America's so-called prosperity is based on debt, war and inflationary money which 
has no backing and is bound to collapse. Along about 1969, it's all going to come 
tumbling down like a house of cards, and the President is going to be blamed for it. In the 

ensuing economic chaos, plus all the racial warfare, the people will welcome a man who 
stands unequivocally for the white Christian majority. 

PLAYBOY: What makes you think so? 

ROCKWELL: As I travel, I find that people everywhere, from the smallest towns to the 
biggest cities, are looking for what I offer. Most of them won't agree with me openly, but 
if you take them aside, ask them privately, they'd probably tell you "Rockwell has the 
right idea: white Christian people should dominate." By 1972, with the economy coming 
apart at the seams, with the niggers pushing, with the Communists agitating, with all of 
this spiritual emptiness, with all this cowardice and betrayal by our Government, the 
masses of common, ordinary white people will have had it up to here. They'll want a real 
leader in the white House — no more spineless jellyfish, no more oily, two faced 
demagogues, no more queers in the white House like Walter Jenkins and his friends. 
They'll be looking for a white leader with the guts of a Malcolm X, with the guts to stand 
up and say, "I'm going to completely separate the black and white races and preserve 
white Christian domination in this country, and I'm going to have the Jew Communists 
and any other traitors gassed for treason. And if you don't like it, you know what you can 
do about it." 

PLAYBOY: Do you seriously think you can be elected on that platform? 

ROCKWELL: I know so. Things are going to be so desperate by then that it won't 
matter whether I've got two horns and a tail; I'll be swept into office. 

PLAYBOY: If you are elected, who from among contemporary public figures would you 
appoint to your Cabinet? 

ROCKWELL: If he were still alive, I'd have General Douglas MacArthur as Secretary 
of State. For Secretary of Defense, Retired General of the Marine Corps "Chesty" Puller. 
For Attorney General, J. Edgar Hoover. For Secretary of the Interior, Governor George 
Wallace of Alabama. Let me think, now, others: Senators William Jenner and Harry 
Byrd, Charles Lindbergh - and William Buckley; he won't appreciate that, but I think his 
brilliance could certainly be valuable. 

You'll have to agree that this is a Cabinet to give nightmares to any Jew alive. 

They'd start swimming for Israel even before I was sworn in. But I don't think there's a 
man in that Cabinet who is known as anti-Semitic. 

PLAYBOY: How about anti-Negro? 

ROCKWELL: Well, I'd prefer to call them pro-white. 

PLAYBOY: If you had carte-blanche power to do so as the Chief Executive, would you 
create a dictatorship along the lines of Hitler's? 

ROCKWELL: No, I'd reinstitute the American Constitutional Republic the way it was 
set up by our authoritarian forefathers — who were, in essence, nothing more than 
National Socialists just like me. 

PLAYBOY: In no way did the Founding Fathers attempt to abridge the democratic right 
to "liberty and justice for all." How can you call them Nazis? 

ROCKWELL: In the first place, I don't believe in democracy. In the second place, 
neither did our white forefathers. I believe, as they did, in a republican authoritarian 
republic with a limited electorate — just like the one the writers of our Constitution meant 
this country to be. When these white Christian patriots sat down to write the Declaration 
of Independence, there were no black citizens for them to worry about. In those days, all 
the niggers were slaves; but to day, thanks to several misguided amendments, our 
Constitution provides even the blackest of savages with the same rights as his former 
white masters. 

PLAYBOY: Then you advocate the disenfranchisement of Negroes? 

ROCKWELL: And the revocation of their citizenship. 

PLAYBOY: And the restoration of slavery? 

ROCKWELL: No, we have machines to do their work now. I would simply revoke their 
citizenship and then offer them the alternatives of either returning to Africa with our 
generous help and assistance in establishing a modern industrial nation, or being 
relocated on reservations like the Indians were when they became a problem to the 
survival of the white people. 

This will apply to you, too, by the way. 

Nothing personal, you understand; I like you, personally; but I can't make any exceptions. 

PLAYBOY: Of course not. What would you do with America's 6,000,000 Jews? 

ROCKWELL: I think the Jews can be dealt with individually rather than as a group — 
like the niggers must be because of their race. As I said earlier, I think all Jews — in fact, 
all those connected in any way with treason, whether Jews or not should be investigated 
and their cases put before grand juries; if they're indicted, they should then be tried, and if 
convicted, they should be killed. 

PLAYBOY: Having disposed of Jews and Negroes, would that complete your list of 
those slotted for removal? 

ROCKWELL: Not quite. I'd also purge the queers. I despise them worst of all. They're 
one of the ugliest problems of our society, and they must be removed ~ I don't know if 
with gas, or what, just so they don't poison society. If they insist on being queers, put 

them on some island, maybe — but certainly not around the rest of society. They're the 
ultimate symbol of a decaying civilization. 

PLAYBOY: Since you're concerned about the problem, Commander, would you like to 
reply to a frequent charge by psychiatrists that the womanless atmosphere of military 
asceticism and institutionalized hostility that characterize your "hate monastery," as 
you've called your headquarters here, make it an ideal sanctuary for those with repressed 
homo sexual tendencies? 

ROCKWELL: My reply is that this is the standard Jewish charge. The biggest charger 
that we are a bunch of homosexuals is Walter Winchell, whose real name is Isadore Israel 
Lipshitz, or some thing like that. [Winchell's real name is Walter Winchel.-Ed.] He's 
always calling me "George Lincoln Ratwell, Queen of the Nazis," saying I'm a fairy, and 
so forth. Universally, I have found that the Jews themselves, as Hitler said, are the 
greatest people in the world for accusing others of their own crimes. 

PLAYBOY: You haven't answered the charge that your Party is a haven for 

ROCKWELL: Well, I do think there is a tendency for queers to come here, because to a 
queer, this place is as tempting as a girls' school would be to me. Whenever I catch any of 
them in here, I throw them out; and I have caught quite a few of them in here. We had 
one case where we had reason to believe that the police would catch two guys in the act. 
The two of them left here hand in hand. I tried to get them prosecuted. We won't tolerate 
that sort of thing. 

PLAYBOY: How about heterosexual relations? Are they verboten, too? 

ROCKWELL: Absolutely not. Any man who didn't vigorously enjoy normal sex could 
never be a National Socialist. One of the best American Nazis I've ever known used to 
use a vulgar expression, "Those who won't fuck won't fight." I wouldn't put it so crudely 
myself, but I heartily subscribe to that doctrine. I never knew a good fighting man who 
didn't enjoy a lusty sex life. 

PLAYBOY: Are any of your men married? 

ROCKWELL: A few, but most are either single or divorced, like myself. I believe very 
strongly in the importance of basic morals to protect civilization, but it's almost 
impossible for a guy in this kind of work to have a normal marriage and family; so most 
of us have no choice but to make other arrangements. And I might add, to paraphrase a 
French bon mot, vive les arrangements. But I must admit that it's damn difficult - 
especially for me — to have any sort of normal contacts with women, since I'm so often 
approached in this regard for political blackmail. 

PLAYBOY: Is it true that you require your Party members to swear an oath against 
drinking, smoking and cursing? 

ROCKWELL: All my officers take an oath against drinking, including myself. Most 
have also taken an oath against smoking. I, myself, would not smoke except that the 
corncob pipe I've smoked for so long has become sort of a trademark. As for cursing, it's 
hard to stop cursing in the rough situations in which we live, just like in the Armed 
Services; but I do all I can to discourage it. 

PLAYBOY: You've used swearwords in this interview. Is this setting a good example 
for your men? 

ROCKWELL: Well, I exempt myself from that oath for professional appearances such 
as this. In talking to you, I've used words like "nigger" and "kike" because this is a big 
interview in a national magazine, and I want to attract attention — to shock people into 
listening to what I have to say. If I were discussing, say, the favorite word of niggers — 
"mother-fucker" — I'd say it strictly as a factual observation and to make a point. But in 
private conversation, neither I nor any of my members ever use that word ~ or any other 
foul language. 

PLAYBOY: Do you also forbid the use of drugs? 

ROCKWELL: Certainly. I've had a few guys in here who I think were marijuana 
smokers, but I've thrown them out and turned them in. Addiction to any drug is 
degenerative mentally as well as physically, and we're dead serious about our dedication 
to the heal -thy-body healthy mind philosophy. 

PLAYBOY: Is karate or judo instruction part of your training program? 

ROCKWELL: Not so much of that. I've found that unless you're a real expert at karate 
or judo, it doesn't help you much. Unless you use it instinctively, it's no use at all. So we 
concentrate on physical education, boxing and weapons training. 

PLAYBOY: What sort of weapons? 

ROCKWELL: Rifles and pistols. 

PLAYBOY: For what purpose? 

ROCKWELL: Self-defense. I believe the white people of America should learn methods 
of surviving in the event of racial anarchy and general bedlam in this country, which I 
think is likely. 

PLAYBOY: Do you share the belief of the Minutemen in the importance of being 
prepared for an armed Communist invasion of the U.S. mainland? 

ROCKWELL: The Minutemen are kidding themselves. If there is a total Communist 
take-over, they haven't got a prayer in the world of surviving it, let alone stopping it — 
running around in the weeds with a few guns like little boys playing cops and robbers. 

All they're doing is giving themselves an emotional catharsis. They're wasting millions of 
dollars, and in the process they're getting a lot of good kids sent to jail for illegal 
possession of weapons. I think it's like the Klan. Their aim, insofar as being ready is 
concerned, I'm for. I'm for the Klan's principles, ideas and so forth - except the anti 
Catholicism — but from my point of view, their methods stink! 

PLAYBOY: What methods? 

ROCKWELL: Their partial terrorism. I feel that terrorism is a valid weapon in guerrilla 
warfare, or any kind of warfare; and under the circumstances in which our country finds 
itself, I would favor terrorism if it could be complete — if it would work. A hundred years 
ago, I'd have been a Klansman with a rope and a gun and the whole business. I'd have 
really gone all out during the Reconstruction to save the white South. And make no 
mistake about the terrorism: It did the job. But today, it plays directly into the hands of 
Martin Luther Coon; it manufactures martyrs for the Northern press, for the liberals, and 
it doesn't scare the niggers out of hell-raising anymore. 

PLAYBOY: But apart from your belief that racial violence against Negroes has become 
self-defeating, you have no moral objection to it? 

ROCKWELL: None at all. What I object to is wars among white men. This is what 
we've been doing for centuries — fighting among ourselves and wiping each other out. 
The North versus the South is a perfect example: the biggest bloodletting we've had, the 
cream of the white population wiped out, all because of the niggers. It solved nothing; it 
really changed nothing — except that a lot of good white kids got killed. I'm agin that! If 
we have any more wars, I want to fight the Red Chinese or the Jews, or go over to Africa 
and fight the niggers. 

This I can see some point to. As far as violence on an individual basis is concerned, well, 
when I come to power I plan to have dueling for officers in the Armed Forces. I'll have 
two purposes in that: first, to maintain a corps of officers unafraid to face death — not just 
in case of war; and second, to restore the concept of personal honor. I don't think going to 
court and suing somebody is really a deterrent to libelous, vicious talk. But people don't 
flap their mouths quite so freely when they're liable to have to back it up with a gun. 
Right now dueling isn't legal, but the moment it is, I would be eager to face Billy James 
Hargis and Robert "Rabbit" Welch on a field of honor for going around calling me a 

PLAYBOY: Have you considered the possibility that you might be killed in such a 

ROCKWELL: I've not only considered it; I expect it. And I'm ready for it. Being 
prepared to die is one of the great secrets of living. I know I'm going to go probably in 
some violent manner; the only question is when and how. But I don't think that's going to 
happen to me until I complete my mission. I know this is irrational, but I believe that I 
was placed here for a purpose and I think God has something to do with it: Our country 

needs a leader. So I think I'll be spared. As Rommel said, "Stand next to me; I'm 

PLAYBOY: Do you think you're bulletproof, too? 

ROCKWELL: Not literally, of course, but I firmly believe that the more arrogant and 
defiant you are of danger, the safer you are from harm. I think that's the reason I've 
survived so many times when people have shot at me. If you're fearless enough, it 
implants a certain psychology in the guy that's trying to shoot at you. It's almost as if he 
could smell your fearlessness, the way an animal smells fear. But the effect is the 
opposite: Instead of being emboldened to attack, he's so unsettled that his hand shakes 
when he goes to pull the trigger; and this makes it almost impossible for him to hit you. 
Either that, or he'll back down entirely. 

When I go out in the street and toughs come up threatening to whip me, I look them 
straight in the eye and say, "Go ahead. Start." Maybe they could whip me, but so far 
nobody's tried. 

PLAYBOY: What's the closest you've come to getting killed? 

ROCKWELL: The closest, I guess - though I didn't get hurt — was the time we had 
scheduled a picket by 14 of us of the movie Exodus in Boston. The other men were in a 
truck, and I had registered in a nearby hotel as Nathan Ginsburg, where I waited until the 
scheduled picket time of two P.M. The newspapers and radio estimated that 10,000 or 
more Jews were packing the streets waiting for us, and my truck full of boys couldn't get 
through the crowd. Well, our picket had been the subject of headlines for days, so I 
couldn't possibly chicken out at that point. I had to get through the crowd somehow to 
picket in front of the theater; so I put on an overcoat, went through the crowd quietly, and 
when I got in front of the theater, I took off the overcoat in the middle of all those Jews 
and stood there in full-dress uniform. They were shocked into silence for a moment; their 
jaws dropped. Then some body hollered, "It's Rockwell! Get him!" And the whole huge 
mob marched in on me with their clubs and baling hooks. If I hadn't been rescued by a 
flying wedge of tough Irish cops, I would certainly have been killed. I was taken into 
protective custody and put in a cell. 

I'll tell you, I was glad I was out of that; it could have ended horribly. But I had to show 
my men that I wouldn't ask them to do anything I wouldn't do myself. 

Another reason I did it is the effect the Nazi uniform has on Jews: It turns them into 
insane hatemongers - easy to beat, outmaneuver and out think. The most dangerous man 
on the face of the earth is a rational, carefully planning Jew, but a raging, hate-filled Jew 
will act foolishly; you can whip him. 

PLAYBOY: How many times have you been jailed for this kind of agitation, 

ROCKWELL: Up to now, 15 times. But never for very long; two weeks was the longest 
— that was in New Orleans. We'd gone down there with our "Hate Bus" to make fun of 
nigger agitators who were calling their bus the "Love Bus." Without so much as a warrant 
or any real cause, the Jew-dominated officials of New Orleans had us all thrown in jail on 
phony charges that were later dropped. 

We finally got out by staging a hunger strike; eleven of us went eight days with out a 
bite. On the fourth day, one of our men began to crack and said he was going to eat, so 
we had to let him know that if he did, it would be his last meal. He changed his mind. 

Another time in Virginia, they put me in jail, and I was facing ten years' possible 
imprisonment for "starting a war against the niggers." You've never seen a man act as 
guilty as the sheriff who arrested me. 

PLAYBOY: Guilty about what? 

ROCKWELL: He felt he was doing the wrong thing. Here was a fellow white man 
fighting for the same things he believed in, and he was throwing me in jail. But this town 
is in the clutches of this Jew who owns two huge department stores and grocery stores 
there; so the sheriff was acting under leftist political pressure. But that leftist hotbed is a 
sanctuary of segregationist arch-conservatism compared with Philadelphia. Believe it or 
not, my men and I were jailed there for picketing a hotel where Gus Hall, the head of the 
American Communist Party, was speaking. As far as I'm concerned, Philadelphia is the 
enemy capital. They've practically got Jewish flags flying from the flagpoles. In most 
cities, though, I've found that they're only bluffing when they threaten me with jail. I tell 
them, "You'd better start arresting, 'cause I'm going to start speaking." Nine times out of 
ten they chicken out. They're used to nonviolent niggers being willing to go to jail — not 
white supremacists. Well, here's one white supremacist who ain't afraid to go to jail. And 
neither are my men. As a matter of fact, we've got at least two or three Party members in 
jail some where in the United States almost 365 days a year. Every Sunday night we 
honor them in ceremonies that we hold on the parade grounds in front of this building. 
We also award special decorations for conspicuous achievement on behalf of the Party 
and for acts of heroism above and beyond the call of duty. 

Our top award is the Order of Adolf Hitler, then the Gold, the Silver and the Bronze 
awards. The highest award I've given yet was the Silver; that was to a man who couldn't 
contain himself in Birmingham and belted Martin Luther Coon on the head for calling 
that nigger Jew Sammy Davis Jr. "... an example of the finest type of American." 

PLAYBOY: You know, of course, that Dr. King is widely respected and admired by the 
majority of the American public, black and white — while you, a champion of white 
supremacy, are regarded by most people as a "nut" and a "hatemonger," abominated by 
almost everyone — including the John Birch Society. 

ROCKWELL: Martin Luther Coon may go on pulling the wool over the public's eyes 
for a while longer, but sooner or later they're going to find him out for what he is — an 

18-karat fake, a fraud on the Negro people. When the black revolution comes, I wouldn't 
be surprised to see him get it first — from his own people. As for my being a nut, that 
name has been applied to some of the greatest men the world has ever known, from 
Christ to the Wright Brothers. I say it's therefore one of the highest accolades I could be 
given. My father once told me that his Jewish friends ask him, "How could you spawn 
such a viper?" Well, I'm proud that Communist Jews think me a viper. As for the threats 
and the beatings and the investigations and the assassination attempts and all that, when I 
hung up the Nazi flag, I counted on being jailed and hated and hounded. If I hadn't been, 
I'd figure I was a flop. Harassment is par for the course in the embryonic stages of any 
new movement that's opposed by the established powers — especially one as 
revolutionary as mine. I wouldn't be surprised if the Anti-Defamation League already has 
a cross built for me, with the nails ready. But I don't consider myself persecuted. Maturity 
is to accept the consequences of your own acts. I think it's a symptom of paranoia to feel 
that it's anyone's fault but your own if you fail to accomplish what you set out to. 

PLAYBOY: We read a newspaper interview a few years ago in which you claimed you 
were being "gagged and slandered by the Jewish press," sabotaged by a nationwide 
journalistic conspiracy in your fight to put your case before the nation. When "the Jewish 
press" wasn't pretending that you didn't exist, you said, it was either deliberately 
misquoting you or doctoring your public statements to remove the sense and retain the 
shock value — in order to make you sound simple-minded or to portray you as a racist 
monster. Only this conspiracy of silence and misrepresentation, you claimed, was 
preventing you from getting your revolutionary message across to the white, gentile 
masses and rallying them to your flag. To some people, Commander, these might sound 
like the remarks of a man who's trying to blame his failures on someone else. 

ROCKWELL: You think I'm being paranoid, is that it? 

PLAYBOY: Some people might. 

ROCKWELL: In the Columbia journalism Review about three months ago, Ben 
Bagdikian, a frequent writer for the Anti-Defamation League, wrote an article called 
"The Gentle Suppression" which asked the question, "Is the news quarantine of Rockwell 
a good thing?" Bagdikian openly reveals that the press maintains as much silence as 
possible about our activities. So you see, the Jew blackout on us is as real as a hand over 
my mouth. They know we're too poor to buy air time or advertising space, so they ban 
our publications from all channels of distribution, and they refuse to report our activities 
in the daily press. I could run naked across the White House lawn and they wouldn't 
report it. I'm being facetious. But I'm dead serious when I say that the only kind of free 
speech left in this country is that speech that doesn't criticize the Jews. If you criticize the 
Jews, you're either smeared or silenced. They have that same kind of "free speech" in 
Cuba, Red China and Russia and every other Communist country: You can say any thing 
you like as long as it doesn't criticize the dictator. The Jews are never going to let me 
reach the people with my message in the American press; they can't afford to. 

PLAYBOY: How do you reconcile that statement with the fact that you're being 
interviewed at this moment for a national magazine? 

ROCKWELL: I've been interviewed, taped and photographed thousands of times for 
just such presentations as these, but they never appear. The fact that you come here and 
get this interview doesn't prove that you'll print it, or that if you do, you'll print it straight. 
After the editors read over the transcript, they'll decide it's too hot to handle, and they'll 
chicken out rather than risk getting bombed by the Jews and the niggers when it comes 

PLAYBOY: We'll take our chances, Commander - if you will. 

ROCKWELL: I'll take any chances to get my message read. But it's never going to 
happen. We've been kept out of the news too many times before. I'll bet you a hundred 
dollars this whole thing has been nothing but a waste of my time, because it's never going 
to reach the people who read your magazine.